Reporter: After changing the formerly holding centers into relief centers, how many people can the new centers help in a year by rough estimate?

Li: Since such a figure goes along the changing situation, it should be counted by the fact. So far, there are 833 holding centers across the country, with a total of 12,000 staff workers. In the past, those holding centers could collect about 3 million person times per year, so based on this, the relief centers should be able to help as many as 2 million person times at least.

Reporter: How can the beggars and vagrants be informed about the relief centers?

Li: It mainly relies on policemen and urban public security workers on duty to tell those in need. We plan to build some eye-catching signs in downtown areas such as the railway stations, which can ensure those who need help to find what they want.

Reporter: How can you be sure that those help-seekers are really in difficulty? How can you identify real vagrants and beggars from those who have turned to vagrancy and begging as a lifestyle?

Li: It is a tough job worldwide to tell real vagrants and beggars from many others. Yet I do believe our clerks in the relief centers can find effective solutions in practice. I trust their wisdom.

In fact, in the long history of China's holding system, our civilian workers have already accumulated a great deal of experiences, which can be inherited and developed. It is not proper to deny all their work just because of some mistakes made.  Identification should combine with inquiry and investigation, that is, to be strict on one hand and give them some freedom on the other hand. Even if a few people take advantage of the more relaxed system to seek free lunches in the relief centers for days, it does not matter. People like these are mostly in difficulty; it is necessary to offer them help any way.

Reporter: The Regulation and its Implementation Rules have set a high requirement for the staff members, can they be really enforced in reality?

Li: Most of those working in the old holding centers are good and some are excellent, however, we have to admit that some staff members in some places were not qualified. That's why the new regulation stresses management of the staff.

As stipulated in the Regulation, the staff members are not allowed to do eight things. To help better enforce the new regulation, the Implementation Rules let the local civilian departments play a major role in managing the operation of local relief centers. Meanwhile, inside the relief centers, each staff member has his or her duties clearly set, so as to protect the legal rights of the vagrants and beggars and uproot incidents such as that of Sun Zhigang (a young man who was maltreated at a holding center in Guangdong and beaten to death). The local government is asked to examine the current workers carefully, keeping those qualified and kicking out those not qualified.

Reporter: Is it the Sun Zhigang Incident that triggered the reform of China’s holding system?

Li: As a matter of fact, we began to realize long time ago that our holding system lagged far behind the social development and no longer met the needs today. As the main responsible department, we have, since the mid-1990s, begun to study how to improve the work. Many local departments, such as that of Tianjin, explored new ways and gained a lot of experiences. However, the change of a system cannot be done overnight. Thanks to those who have been working hard on this, the new regulations could have been able to be made known in such a short time.

Reporter: Given the current situation that some vagrants would rather beg than going to a relief center, do you have any method to handle it?

Li: That's one of the problems we may face in the implementation of the new regulations. However, no matter how tough the situation might be, force shall never be allowed. In addition, the new regulations need to be carried out together with many relevant regulations, such as the "Security Administration Punishment Act." The State Council has already made clear that the other civil laws must be improved too in order to guarantee the effective enforcement of these new rules.

Reporter: In other countries, the social work on beggars and vagrants are usually done by the non-government organizations and professional social workers, have you ever considered learning from it?

Li: Yes, we are considering this issue though it is not specified in the Implementation Rules due to the time limits. In the following days, we will think about organizing volunteers and non-government organizations to participate in the work. Anyway, our social relief work must be improved and developed through practice so as to meet the need of the changing society.

(China.org.cn by Zheng Guihong, August 10, 2003)